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[Ocean Strider]

I can't think of any class that uses a handicap system at a Nationals.  A seperate fleet status is the more usual way of dealing with this issue.

We have had "Classic" status defined and discussed before but it doesn't seem to have been that popular.

[John Torrance]

Jim
2 points :-
(i) When we race as a class we don't use handicaps
(ii) Early wooden single bottom Phantoms weigh in the region of 54kg, ex plate, so if you want light get a single bottom boat.

Yes modern epoxy boats are faster, some of that speed is the equipment they use, ie carbon rigs and foils, new fittings and film sails; some is the hull but probably less than you think.

For handicap racing pre epoxy etc. the Phantom raced off 1054 so perhaps you need to persuade your club to revert to that for old boats. For class racing you will need to get all the windshifts right!

Enjoy the sail anyway
John ( 927 & 1300)

[bert]

We have had "Classic" status defined and discussed before but it doesn't seem to have been that popular.

I think that "it wasn`t popular" because the woodie`s / classic`s didn`t feel it was worth their while to do the national`s.
As it was mentioned in the "types of phantom" section in the history section ( I think?) - the woodies rarely trouble the front runner`s.

That said if you are racing at club level only then using the old PY of 1054 is proberly the way forward.I wouldn`t feel that using my old woodie in an open event weather it is a Handicap or class event is a realistic choice for winning anything but for me thats not realy the point.

[jimb]

Hi, quick update from an earlier post (Jim 993). Mix of local sailing and a couple of general Handicap away events.
Local sailing against Solo, RS400, Europe, Laser, RS Vareo. Generally close racing on handicap (1030). At times very course dependant, i.e. how many planing reaches. Wind wise, as has been said before, F2/3, quickest, F3+ all becomes closer.
Away events, bigger seas 6-8 ft swell, F3 to F5, mixed fleet Solos, 420's, Streakers.. sitting mid fleet (some good Scottish squad sailors in the pack).
Sea, (flat water), F1 to F3, against Laser Radials. F1, crept ahead on handicap. F3, close on handicap-just beaten. F2, (even with the older heavier boat) huge gap in performance with last race having a large winning margin.
(again, some good Scottish squad sailors in the Laser pack).
So in summary I would say depending on various factors (wind strength, tide, age of own boat, age of other competing boats, technical skills of the sailors etc) will have a bearing on the end result.
GRP v's epoxy, an epoxy would likely blow the local sailing fleet away whilst making the big sea sailing a lot closer on handicap. Think the handicap debate will rumble on..
Jim
GRP 993

[calum]

Hi Jim,

You should sail at PEYC after all you beat me as we use personal handicaps, ( me off 1000 you off 1040). Anyway looking forward to sailing my phantom in Canada they have not got a clue what it is ( but they think sunfish are cool boats . So you can now officially say the Phantom has gone international as my boat gets delivered tomorrow. So Jim are you winning at Tummel?

[jimb]

Hi Calum
Not at Loch Tummel, down at Wormit and back on salt water and TIDE!! again 
Doing ok, spent a lot of time getting the rig sorted out which has made quite a difference, especially up wind.
Hope Canada sailing goes well, will be interesting to see how much interest you get in the boat and what handicap you end up with. You could set up a side line in importing Phantoms into the country.
Rgds Jim

[snodders]

I find the talk of splitting handicaps very interesting. I am a lone Phantom sailor in a club where we sail predominantly handicap races. My boat (no. 1064) is a poly Vandercraft with a tin rig. Because we have nothing to compare with I sail off a PY of 1030. If I "pull my puddings out" I can scrape a top four place, but I reckon a new boat would stuff the locals no problem. I have only had the boat six months and have never sailed against another Phantom. What's my point? Well looking at other classes that have split their handicap ratings do you not think they have also split the class? I'm sailing against top RS400/Fireball/Albacore sailors and am still competitive, admittedly on a small reservoir, but with a little more effort and time I think I can win off 1030.   Pete. 

[Rob]

I'm planning on sailing this boat I've been building for the last eight months, next weekend in our local Portsmouth Yardstick open regatta. I've asked for a provisional handicap of 89.6, which should equate to a UK Portsmouth number of about 1040. I've been trying to predict how the boat should fare against the local fleet of scows and flying scots, but since you guys don't have those, it's hard to tell. We do have lasers and snipes though. How does the Phantom do against those classes? Better in light air than heavy or medium breeze? Just wondering what to expect.

[maxibuddah]

Rob,
the phantom will be much quicker around the course than a Laser, especially in the light to medium stuff. You may well struggle to stay in front of them in a force 4-5 and upwards though due to the hard work a phantom can be because of the sail area. Force 1-3 is the real strong point of the phantom so if you get that you'll do well. Don't expect to go that well first time out as the boat takes a little getting used to and setting it up to be fast when you haven't got anyone to compare against could be difficult.

I hope that it really goes well for you and that you do well, though obviously don't trash them first time out otherwise you will be called a PY bandit. Let us know how you get on and if you have anymore photos let have a look. Also if you do get some time now that you aren't building the thing, write us a little resume of the build and everything for the website, it'll be good to see how you got there.

Oh, if you find yourself struggling for pointing then pull some more vang on. The top batten needs a tail tail on the luff and this needs to be flying about 50% of the time upwind. If it gets windy keep pulling the vang as hard as you can but don't expect the tail tail to stall.

Good luck and best wishes from everyone over here in the class.
Cheers
Ian

[calum]

had my first race here in Canada against Y flyers, Fireballs and some cats. Took a handicap of 89 based on the nearest boat I could find in both US and UK PY's. So based it on a Taser with a handicap of 1025 but rekoned that with my boat being a epoxy boat and it being on a lake, also my boat is in better nick than most of the competition. Sailed three races think I won two of the three wind was all over the place 1~4. we also have sunfish, lasers, wayfarers, bytes etc so a fair selection, but check out the Y Flyer pretty strange boat,

Calum

[Rob]

Thanks Ian, and thanks to all of you here who have given advice, etc. Couldn't have completed the boat as is without the help. I can't tell y'all how excited I am to get this project in the water. I'm pretty sure that it will be a challenge to get up to speed, but that's part of the reason I built her. Appreciate the insight into pointing mode. The top telltale being 50% stalled sounds a bit like pointing the Flying Scot. I'll put together something on the whole process after friday, and include photos. Can we have a "Builder's Forum" on the web site possibly?

[maxibuddah]

I'll sort one out Rob. Also don't pull the end of the boom in further than the inner gunwhale upwind and normally it should point towards the outer gunwhale at the transome. Do the former when you need to pinch a little higher than normal or leave at the outer

[Phantom 1118]

Hello all,

I have just read this entire thread with great interest.

A point that i think has been missed to a great extent is Local club apathy, yes apathy.

Where i sail, upriver from jimb at wormit, we have the largest registered solo fleet in scotland, for many years it has been totally dominated by the Slowlo.

This season has seen an Albacore all but dominate the season and extensive grumbling from the old Slowlo hands to the point where it seems that many of them dont go out to race anymore.

The club tried to bring in personal handicaps, a few years back but this was seen as a cheatable system and was disregarded after one season as being "unworkable" and the club official who brought it in was strangely ousted after only one term in office, when the norm is three years.

Oddly i get the distinct feeling that any other class is resisted strongly and met with distaste.

where a club is dominated by a particular class as we are, i suspect that there may be strong resistance to change.

It was hilarious to a few of us in the club last year when the 2011 handicaps came out and the Slowlo had changed, after the Slowlo guys saying that its handicap would never change as the RYA considered it as one of the 'all time benchmarks' by which all other boats are compared.

regards,

Harry.

ps

If our club done returns to the RYA then the RYA would from our data at least have a strong case for changing either the Slowlo handicap, or, some of the other classes that do sail here such as Laser, GP14, Byte, Streaker, Laser R, Laser 4.7,

Historically at this club the Slowlo reams them all, which is why i personally suspect that we as a club dont submit scoring returns to the RYA.

But thats just my personal opinion  and i find that apathetic. 

[Big + Lardy]

Harry

Once you have mastered the phantom, you will find that Solo's will be easy to beat in the following conditions:

1. Marginal Hiking conditions upwind F1-2 once you are fully powered up you will out-point most anything & sail very fast on handicap.

2. Marginal planing conditions F2-3 due to you large sail area & power to weight ratio you will be amoungst the first boats to plane downwind therefore increasing your chances of winning on handicap. Solo's require considerably more wind to plane.

2 Points in your favour.. Over 80% of UK dinghy racing takes place in winds between force 1-3, Also your big fleet of Solo's will be so busy racing against themselves they will leave you to sail your own race in comparitively clean air

Have fun

B&L