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[maxibuddah]

Were there particular conditions where you felt the aly mast had an advantage?

I just think if there is no performance difference why do we bother?

And also I have bought a 2nd hand one from P&B to replace my Aly one

No don't worry, if you can hold a tin rig then they will probably give you the same performance..ish. However as I said before there is less weight aloft which definiely makes gybing easier and more stable and as Ben says they are a lot easier to manage around the boat park.

The main reason these days for carbon is that all sail manufacturers are cutting their sails to match the carbon and that they may set differently to the tin.

And yes the boom does hurt less, even over the round ali ones.

Don't worry, carbon is the way ahead and you have definitely done the right thing, it will bend off better in the rough stuff and therefore the carbon ones are easier to depower than the tin.

[Phantom Titch]

As Promised:

Following the meeting of the PCA last Friday I promised to feedback the discussions:

We discussed the merits of suggesting a Handicap for older boats, after lengthy discussions we decided that clubs should develop there own PY's to suit local conditions and Helms ability.

As a starting point boats older than 1100, ie not Epoxy used to sail of 1053, others (Epoxy) could start with the current RYA PY of 1035 and then adjust for local conditions and hlem ability.

We recomend you reference the RYA website for guidance.

http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/portsmouthyardstick.aspx


John - PCAS

[fat freddy]

cheers , better than a beetle up the nose as they say ,

at least something from class to show our clubs , but as for them adjusting pys as rya recommend , wouldn't hold my breath , why would they start now when thats been insystem for years !

my   old yin off 1053 tin rig wood will get me a race , guess if I win It will be chopped:) , not likely I'm 118kgs and sailing on the sea .

Still I have the phantom for fun sailing on balmy summer eves  and race my cat otherwise.

dare I say got a merlin to sail with the wife occaisonaly too !!! I can pick em .

[NeilB]

Gents,

Agreed that guidance from the class is very welcome especially now its even harder for old boats to sail to the new handicap of 1030.

But it'd be even better if it were somewhere a bit more up font not tucked away in this thread.

Neil - 991

[phantom badger]

hi all,  my boat 896 is 20k over weight, so if us woodys race at a open  do we get a higher py, or do we just not bother going !!! lol

[RHYC 1]

Dont come to alton water for handicap racing then we are currently on 1023 and they want to knock another 5 point off this year.

Matthew
1355

[Ocean Strider]

Matt, I bet they don't start us with the fast handicap fleet again!  Maybe they'll get us to tow a bucket??

[jimb]

In the information 'One advantage with the phantom is that both the class association and the designers view the development of the class in a proactive manner always providing that care is taken not to outclass older boats.' With the introduction of the Epoxy boat and its subsequent development over the last few years a new boat was born. Epoxy boats now are down to weight usually with full correctors and many of the older Vandercraft boats are close to weight and still carrying full correctors (and maintain their stiffness)
The older boats (mine is 993) are many kg overweight, likely in the 15-20kg area. This plus the boats lack of general stiffness splits the class. Have sailed both GRP and Epoxy, the latter has a completely different feel and performance, i.e. a heck of a lot quicker and more responsive.
How can we reduce the differential between old and new, only practical way would be to up the base weight requirements to approx 70-75kg. Means adding a chunk of lead to the new epoxy boats, but achievable. We cant fix the stiffness issue but it may bring the class closer together again.
Have omitted the wooden and composite as there are generic issues across the whole build of boats.

Jim
993

[Coastbuster]

I have had to check the date to see if it is April 1st yet!

You cannot b e serious!  I like most owners have bought and updated my boats for what they are now not 30 years ago. If that happened I would sell mine tommorrow.

To suggest dragging the whole fleet backwards and changing a lovely boat in to a lead mine is ridiculous.  For those that love wood and those that are not in a position at this time to get in to an epoxy boat then the answer is to address the Club to get your local handicaps adjusted.  We do and all seem happy with it.

We can not go back to the halcyon days when bits fell off and yes they were overweight.  Life changes. The wooden and GRP boats still provide great sailing and can still do well as a chariot for the larger helm.  You can not expect it to be exactly the same as an epoxy but I think too many people run them downwhen they are perfectly good to race in.

My opinion only .

[fat freddy]

He got you hook line and sinker there

dont think for a moment that his proposals are serious , rather making the point that the similarities between an old woody and a new epoxy ARE MILES APART .by offering a tongue in cheek solution to the problem.

I am most dissapointed that the class seems to have little concern for the older woodys and the majority having moved on from them get the feeling that the attitude is let them die off  and the problem will go away .

[Ocean Strider]

I can assure you that the Committee discussed the handicap issue for a long time at the last meeting and it is appreciated that many members of the Association own and race older boats.

We can't change (or even influence) the RYA in respect of PY's, as this is done by club returns etc.  We did decide however that we could offer guidance as to what we felt an appropriate yardstick would be for older boats.

The advancement of the class is being brought about by the newer methods of construction and the enthusiasm of the fleet.  I sincerely believe that yardstick is not a massive factor in the decision to buy and sail a new boat.

I know many sailors do however race in handicap fleets in older boats and I am afraid that they must lobby threir club regarding their PY if they feel the system needs a local correction.  Our guidance was intended to add a little weight to this case.

I hope this reassures members that we do have their interests at heart.

As Matt has posted earlier, the club I'm "overwintering" at think our PY needs changing because we win - shouldn't the other boats go a tad faster instead??   

Chris.

[AWILDE]

There is no way the class should have weight added, I agree with Coastbuster if this is done I would sell my boat and move classes.  You just need two PY numbers like many other classes.

[maxibuddah]

I think it got a short response from titch on this thread somewhere Chris, but the problem is that these sorts of things get lost through various pages of comments. What I think is really needed is an official statement that can be posted in the information section of the website so that it will quell any disquiet or disharmony once and for all. I will ask John if we can do this so that hopefully can be put to bed for a year or two
I know that you guys have discussed this to some length in committee meetings but I guess that the majority of people did not until your response. Thank-you for putting the record straight
MaxiB

[jamesd20]

We shouldn't be surprised that our handicap is falling. PY is a result of results of handicaps throughout the UK. As the class is keen to promote there are a number of high class helms & as people eventually sell there old boats & move to the new Epoxies (which it appears from comments are a lot faster) the handicap will reduce.

I imagine it can only fall further as others "upgrade" their boats (I myself plan to next year for example)

The handicap will only settle once "most" people have the newer boats & there is no appreciable difference between a 2012 epoxy boat & a 2009 epoxy boat.

The difficulty will be if next year or the year before a new hull is produced that makes a further step in performance then we will have the same thing over again.

[jimb]

Thanks for all the responses, looks like we may be saving a few churches from having to donate some lead from their roofs    There seems to be a general consensus that older boats warrant a different handicap based on the design changes and notice this on the Info page, not sure how long this has been posted.
As there is a recognition that the older boats are at a disadvantage, I assume that pre 1100 boats entering the Nationals or travellers events should look forward to the handicap adjustment as well to help level the playing field.

Jim