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[gordon Kingston]

Hi All
After last years drop by 8 what do people think is the likely number for 2011?
if it drops more than 2  i think i will end up in the fast handicap against 49ers and RS800 which could mean some very long races for me.

Regards
Gordon

[Big + Lardy]

I would say that another drop is inevitable....

The classes results at events like the draycote dash prove that 1035 can still be generous **** on flat water in force 1-3 ****.

That said the Merlin Rocket needs a larger drop something like 995 would be good.

Two interesting facts -

@ The blithfield Barrel the phantoms are on a lower handicap, along with the Merlin's.

We believe the sailjuice winter warm-up will use revised handicaps for its events in 2011 for the same classes.

Regards

B&L

[NeilB]

If the handicap drops further, there must be an even greater argument for a different rating for older polyester and wooden boats with tin rigs.

[maxibuddah]

If the handicap drops further, there must be an even greater argument for a different rating for older polyester and wooden boats with tin rigs.

yep totally agree, is this something the committee could discuss, perhaps giving a recommended PY for the older boats?

[Phantom Titch]

Weve done the discussion before and the PY setting neeeds to be done by the individual clubs as PY is Course, Water and Club dependant, as recomended by the RYA.

[maxibuddah]

Where i was coming from john is can we recommend a baseline for the older boats cos there are no official figures for clubs to work from. It would only be a baseline but would help clubs where phantoms are new to them but happen to be older boats.  at the moment we kind of leave them to it which doesnt help. Is it possible to do this with the caveat that it is only a guide and should be adjusted accordingly? Id hate for the class to be perceived as abandoning the older boats. I know though that this is a complicated and emotive subject and the committee have little time to consider such things each year but it would be nice if we could. We would only have to say that it would be 1050 or something

[John Torrance]

I think 1060 or even 1070 would not be unreasonable for an older woody with a Needlespar mast and Dacron sail.
Merry Christmas to all Phantom sailors.
John

[fat freddy]

Titch as an owner of a woody in a club that hasnt had phantoms sailing for years a BENCHMark Rating suggested by the Phantom class committee WOULD be a great assett , we have absolutely no idea of where to place a woody rating wise to start with and my clubs racing committee would appreciate a considered starting point , they then can fine tune to local conditions , I appreciate there can be quite a difference between inland ,open sea and estuary sailing praps some pointers there too would be good . Theres quiet a bit of interest in our club in elderly phantoms and if the Association could help with ratings it could only do the class good . I also have an old Merlin whose class association actually produce py variations against base hcap for sail no groups . The boat I race regularily is a cat under SCHRS which is a whole can off worms

[fat freddy]

as a matter of interest what was the py of woodys and grp boats prior to the chopping following epoxy and carbon boats

[jeffers1974]

I believe it was 1047 before the latest round of reductions. Having been involved from a sailing committee point of view a recommendation from the class of th sort of disparity that there is between the new exoxy boats with carbon masts and and the older GRP/wooden boats with tins rigs would be very useful.

What we used to do at Hunts was run the 'classic' (i.e. wiiden or GRP boats with tin rigs) off 1047 and the epoxy boats off a lower number (for handicap racing only). When it came to class racing it was boat on boat racing.

[NeilB]

My other recent experience and I agree that the banded sail number vs rating formula that the Merlins have adopted is a good guide.  The phantom being a much simpler case ie only 2 or 3 basic combinations it'd surely be easy to adopt.

The oficial rating for epoxy carbon rigs

A rating for wooden / polyester boats with tin rigs and dacron


And a recomendation for each step in between
Carbon boom
Carbon mast
high tech cloth

so it'd possible to rate any combination

Or are wood and polyester boats sufficiently differnt that they would need separating too?

[maxibuddah]

Neil, one thing that should be taken out of the equation is the tin rig/carbon rig factor. A boat is not slower because it has a tin rig. I used a tin rig on an epoxy boat and still finished 9th at the nationals a few years back. It is primarily the hull that causes the problem. They can be split as follows -

Polyester/vinylester hull - can be up to 14 kg's overweight.
Composite hull - usually overweight and not as quick as the poly/vinyl boats.
Wooden hull - difficult as can be on or very near to weight right up to 15 kg's over. Therefore should there be a split within the wooden grouping?

Perhaps not as simple as first thought

[fat freddy]

Bump !


To bring this back to consideration ,

Its a shade dissapointed to us ole woodys that the committee doesn't seem to want to help further with this issue .

race committees would accept suggested ratings from a class long before those offered by interested individuals .

as has been said to infinitum pys should be adjusted by clubs to suit their conditions , however many reluctant to do , new rya reporting system should help with its returned suggested ratings , but its taking over a year to get my club into gear on that (still not there - all sorts of stupid club inefficiencies) .

Please Phantom committee , put your experience and great minds together and come up with something - its only for the betterment of the class after all .


Certainly this scenario is only feeding the move of older gits sailing "second " boats into the so slow class !!! where the difference in boat speed across the "ages " is not so prevalent .


HELP !!!!!!!!!!]

[gordon Kingston]

Hi Fred
What you are not appreciating is that if we split the handicap then us with epoxy boats will have no help from you the older boats in keeping the handicap lower.
As someone who is slow and sails on the sea in chop i need all the help i can get.
Joking apart having had an old woody boat you have a point.
Regards
Gordon

[fat freddy]

"Many a true word is spoken in jest"


perhaps this is the root of the problem , I jest