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[low-bouyancy-man]

 

Hi y'all,

To all reading this, I would welcome your input to defining the 'Classic' Phantom. I have had many and varied suggestions about this.

To put the record straight, we have not yet finalised what this should be, exactly.

Also, if any wooden boat is numbered over 950, and the owner wishes to take part in Classic events, we have to agree that it meets the definition, not only 'in spirit', but accepts any weight penalty to bring it into line with what will be agreed as fair to compete.

At present the definition is shaping up to be as follows:-

1.  The boat should be made of wood for its hull and decks.
2.  Minimum weight will be calculated in the same manner as any regular Phantom, but should be no lighter
      than 75 kgs. If lighter, it has to have 'ballast' weights clearly visable and agreed to be correct by the
      officer running an event. Measurement certificate should be presented if correctors have to be added.
      The certificate will be marked with the corrector weight by an 'officer' of the Association for inclusion
      in a Classic event. Such weight may be removed when taking part in regular non-Classic events.
3.  Rig should be aluminium or wood. Carbon will not be allowed.
4.  Sails will be to 'normal' Phantom spec.

Please will everyone who reads this, comment if they wish to add to this or differ if they feel strongly about it, or, indicate that they are happy to go along with this.  Your comments will all be appreciated by the Association.

Thanks to everyone who has engaged in this developing discussion and intention.

Mike 909

 

[John Torrance]

Mike
When you say that sails will be to "normal" Phantom spec. do you mean that film sails are allowed or just dacron?  If film sails then why not carbon rigs? I am happy with everything else.
John  927
 

[The Cat]

I dont understand  "2.  Minimum weight will be calculated in the same manner as any regular Phantom, but should be no lighter than 75 kgs. If lighter, it has to have 'ballast' weights clearly visable and agreed to be correct by the officer running an event. Measurement certificate should be presented if correctors have to be added. The certificate will be marked with the corrector weight by an 'officer' of the Association for inclusion in a Classic event. Such weight may be removed when taking part in regular non-Classic events."

Surely a classic should be "A Phantom" with a racing certificate.  Are you serously going toask wooden boat owners to ad 14 kilograms to a boat and sail it in a classic class at the nationals.  That doesnt work for me.  True I wont be sailing in a classic at the nationals but I am sailing in a phantom.  And i expect every boat on the course to be classed as a phatnom with a racing certificate.   

There is a massive spread accross the fleet and I am sure that slowing boats down is not very constructive.  You can do that by joining the americas cup fleet

[Rich]

Unless I've read it wrong then I can't see any reference to owners of wooden boats being procluded from non classic events at their normal boat weight. Where Classic & Non Classic events coincide then I would imagine it would be up to the boat owner to decide which fleet he wishes to participate in, and consequently accepts the rules applicable to that fleet. Perhaps Mike could confirm?

Unfortunateley I do not have sufficient experience with Phantoms to know whether 75kgs is a realistic benchmark for older wooden boats.

Rich

[low-bouyancy-man]

Hi Rich,

Wooden boat owners are entitled to take part in ANY Phantom event.

The idea of defining the Classic is to preclude non-wooden boats from taken part when the older boats wish to have some fun when competing fairly with eachother.

When enough are assembled together, then the wooden boat owner can decide which fleet he takes part in. This is not a fixed situation. You can decide whenever you go to an event.

The plastic boats are, generally speaking, much lighter (hence greater speed), have a better overall hull shape (though still within the tolerances allowed and hence the greater speed potential) and are, believe it or not, very much faster. It is as if they are almost another class when compared to the wooden Phantoms. The objective here is to allow the older boats to have their fun and good competition without playing second fiddle to the much faster plastic boats.

Because older wooden boats tended to be overweight (about 95% of them, with weights of 70-80 kgs), they have been at a disadvantage to the plastic boats for years and this has brought about their demise. When there are some 500 like this, then we wish to encourage them again.

Lastly, your comment about whether 75 kgs is a benchmark. No, but chances are your boat will weigh in at that level.

I hope this explanation helps.

Mike.

[The Cat]

All burrel tells an amusing story of going to the laminators to pick up a new plastic phantom (an early one) with Jeff a few years ago  and it took 4 burly guys to carry the boat out of the workshop.  He reckons it was well over 100 Kgs before fit out.  Lucky for us plastic sailors thoose bad old days are long gone.

I believe Al still won the nationals with that boat though.

[John Torrance]

Cat,
Itwas 92 kgs and he did win, it was the championships at Gorleston.
The three of us that helped him lift it still wear trusses.
John

[low-bouyancy-man]

Essentially, most owners of the cheaper (certainly wooden) boats are not of the excellent calibre of Al. Al may have taken a 92kg boat and beaten many wooden boats that day with 75 kg or so.  I think he would be pushing the odds to beat a well sailed 61 kg boat these days if he were in the 92 kg championship boat still!

I think we have to be careful to not inadvertently qualify those of lesser ability. Many of our helms in Classic Phantoms would like to aspire to Al's ability, but few will actually achieve that. I am hoping we can create an atmosphere these new members will engage in and will be able to get good advice from you fast guys. I, for one, will be requesting you to assist here. Even I might ask for your advice as well.

In fact, I think it would be a great idea if we bring in a 'mentoring' system to encourage some of the newer helms until they are really familiar with their adopted Phantom. We have some 100+ adequate guys that could act as 'mentors'.

What do you think, Guys?


Mike 909

[low-bouyancy-man]

To answer a few points raised in earlier replies. I hope this will not further confuse my able colleagues.


1. Cat,  I am confused by your thinking the Classic Phantoms won't have racing certificates.

Generally though, if you have an easier way or a better idea for encouraging the missing 500, than helping make a level playing field for them, I would be pleased to hear about it. I would much rather have you work with me on this or allow me to work with you on an alternative than find I have to keep revisiting what was a Committee decision to do something positive.

Slowing the Classic boats down is not the intent. It is slowing you down when you compete with them in their Class section which is the intent. They are already slow by their boat weight and genereal ability. As a different Class section, it has merit, but for full open racing the 61 kg limit is not even being suggested that it be altered. You are still safe from being overtaken by an old wooden boat!


2. John, not certain how you make the leap from a film sail to a carbon mast being acceptable. By allowing a carbon mast, you add another £1,000+ to the cost of a boat that cost its bew owner only few hundred pounds, That will lose us potential members. You can buy a second hand film sail pretty cheaply these days. They have good lasting properties, probably better than a Dacron sail.

On the sail front, isn't a Dacron sail's stretch characteristics more suitable to the bending characteristics of a carbon rig? A film sail is a pretty stable material and with a less bendy 'tin' rig, you can get a fairly constant shape as a consequence. Perhaps some of our sail maker friends could add input to this discussion?  I think you have raised an interesting debate here!

Mike 909

[jeffers]

Just my five penny worth on the carbon/tin discussion. I think that in banning carbon Mike you will alienate those people who already have this type of rig on an older boat, and I have seen quite a few. The problem is that most people saw that a carbon rig was the answer to going fast and bought one - not so, that was down to hull weight (and of course the nut on the end of the tiller). The rig makes very little difference as far as I can see, I sailed with an M7 on my old poly boat & on my epoxy boat. It was definitely the hull that got me top 10. I have finished 9th & 10th with the M7 and 10th once with the carbon, so I am not sure that the carbon makes any real difference. Certainly I agree with the point that if you are going to allow plastic sails, then by definition you should allow plastic rigs. If you don't the guys with the carbon will face an outlay to purchase a tin rig, and believe me there are not that many around (strangely) as Jeff Vanderborght will testify to (he's always looking for them to fit out older boats). Who wants to pay top money for a tin rig these days? I think that you are better off concentrating on the hull side of things than on the rig.

Also the earlier composite hulls were very heavy, where do they fit into things - not fast enough for the normal fleet - too plastic for your definition of the classic fleet. Are we going to have a semi-classic fleet?

Does classic mean real classic (i.e. concours) or does mean any boat that is too heavy to be included with the epoxy boats? Personally I think that the classic boat should include any boat that has decks made from wood.

MaxiB

[low-bouyancy-man]

 

The intention of this section was to get the reaction of as broad a group as possible. At the end of the day, those who wish to take part in the 'Clasisic' series etc. must work with what they agree is affordable, desireable and practical.  So far, I have had several views expressed. Interestingly, they have largely been from those who already sail fast plastic boats. One may already have a "Classic" Phantom. I do too. So views of such multiple owners is 1 : 1 so far.

My opinion is not what really matters. It has to be down to those who register interest to take part. They will be canvassed in as democratic a way as is possible. This will probably be done once numbers are significant, but don't hold you breathe as to when that will be! If enough turn out to the Nationals, then perhaps a vote then might be an option. So far we have about a dozen who have replied positively.

One thought comes to mind, Ian, and that is the comparison of masts and costs. I get the feeling from you that a cost of a 'tin' rig would be resented (about £300) but people who would not mind going for a carbon unit (about £1,000+) would be happy to do this! Most boats come with a 'tin' rig when you look at the boats we are trying to encourage at the moment. The simple but easy answer would be to allow a free for all on this. I have no doubt this topic will be aired for a while yet.

Interestingly, your experience with carbon and tin left you with a neutral view on the topic. I, on the other hand, found the carbon mast made my old wooden boat (898 and wt. 78 kgs) much easier to drive and adapt as weather conditions changed, more so than the 'tin' rig. I found my average placings in events improved (not by a lot, but some).  I do seriously agree with you that weight in the Phantom is the true killer.   Therefore if the rig is left as owners decide, one thing that will have to stay and that is the intention to encourage weight equality across these boats. Then it will definitely be down to the 'lump' on the tiller. That will be real proof of a 'lump's' ability, probably more so than in the national fleet where boat weights go from 61 kgs to 100+ kgs. Perhaps the 'Classic' series will be the real proof of ability at the end of the day!

Mike.  

[Rich]

In my opinion much could be learned from the 'CVRDA' on this matter. They have a definition as to which boats qualify (in their case more than 25yrs old of a design before 1965). Where they get a spread of different types of boats within a given class then they are given individual handicaps i.e a 45yr old Finn with wooden mast and old sails will not be expected to sail of the same handicap as 25yr old one with more modern kit. These handicaps are kept under reveiw and from what I have seen participants appear to accept them in a freindly and good natured manner.

Perhaps the Classic Phants should adopt a similar system in that any boat below a given sail number (assuming sail number is a fair indication of age) will qualify as 'Classic' irrespective of construction material. A handicap adjustment formula is then arrived at i.e points are added for every kilo your boat is over the minimum weight, then points are deducted for a carbon rig, film sails ect, ect. This will allow different boats to compete together without the need for purchasing new kit.

You would be unlikely to get such a formula right first time and it would need to be honed as events progress. One thing you can be sure of though is that wherever you draw the line, there will always be someone just the other side of it who will feel agreived. By it's very nature this exercise cannot be all encompassing.

Rich

[low-bouyancy-man]

Whilst I've known some of this was going on, I've read little about it. The initials CVRDA are new to me. If they have some system, then some geek will have tried to build a spreadsheet or a bit of software to allow an easier evaluation of the results. It would be good to see this and any hints as to where it can be seen or reviewed would be useful. Can you help here, Rich? 

The importance of such comparisons is the number of variables you build into it so the degree of error is minimised and therefore its ability to point the right way to make handicap adjustments, is very important. I've been trying to build such a spreadsheet, but am a long way from happy it will be useful. So far it hasn't given the ability to evaluate these type of variables but it has shown some other points that has allowed me to build another idea which will be discussed in committee next year, when we have the time.

I find the idea of a deeper analysis useful when you come to present evidence to justify any change in the way you encourage competition. That a discussion will result, goes without saying, so having something to hang your hat on is useful. Changes in the way we encourage our other members to compete will always be challenged by those with preconceptions of what is best to be done. I hope we can persuade the conservative elements to be forward thinking and allow us to experiment with ways to add interest to the Class events and thus encourage more to take part. Nice if we can set the stage this year that will see in excess 100 boats at the 2008 Nationals. 

Mike.

[jeffers]

One thought comes to mind, Ian, and that is the comparison of masts and costs. I get the feeling from you that a cost of a 'tin' rig would be resented (about £300) but people who would not mind going for a carbon unit (about £1,000+) would be happy to do this!

Mike,
I was saying that being forced to shell out for a tin mast just to take part in a classic race would mean the possibility of alienating those sailors with the older boats who do have a carbon mast. As for £300 considering the lack of 2nd hand tin rigs about, well that might be undervaluing the cost of having to purchase a rig, being that they may have to buy new.
Ian

[Rich]

Mike, CVRDA is the 'Classic & Vintage Racing Dinghy Association'. the association is an easy going affair run by people who share a love for old dinghies. No annual subscriptions are payable and most things seem to get organised thru the website\forum. Various events are held throughout the country which anyone can turn up to and sail (for a small fee) so long as your boat meets the qualifiying criteria, unfortunately the Phantom does not qualify as it was not designed before 1965.

With regard to handicaps they use the old school 2 digit handicap system but the race officer on the day is at liberty to alter handicaps for individual boats as mentioned my the previous post. Links as below
Website
http://www.cvrda.org/news/news.htm
Forum
http://www.intcanoe.org/cvrda/

They are a most helpfull bunch a people, and given your aims I am sure that they would be prepared to offer advice if sought.

Rich